Hi,
as a very longtime user and admin of the band's tech this problem strikes me again and again:
Bandmates who are not very tech savy won't use BH even knowing there is anything (text, mp3, vids, chords etc.) already prepared from me for them to use.
They simply don't get it how to use the website or even more the app.
It would be of really great help to have a simple noob user mode that starts in the right database with the songlist to select (or even jump directly into a specific songlist) and automatically selects a layout, that was preselected by me for the user.
And perhaps a tiny little button to go and see the rest of BH.
I am really annoyed that I have everything in BH, but the intro level is so complex that I still send setlists and mp3 per email and doubles or triples my chores.
So my question is:
How do you cope with this (I believe common) problem?
Can there be (or is there?) a simple mode?
Thanks for your time
Uwe
Can you get them to watch this 6 1/2 minute video, "Getting Started for Bandmates"?
https://youtu.be/OQyf3hEaWbQ
Hi Arlo
Sort of...
The vid is in English.
I tried to show and explain the very basic functions to them.
But... If tap one false button, they never make it back.
After two or three tried they are frustrated and give up.
And want their paperwork back.....
It's so annoying.
I can't believe that there are not a lot of people here having the same problems.
In my last name there was a split in two groups.
One used BH more and more and one who refused and never made it.
Most of the time the complex handling of the app make them refuse to use it.
It's too much effort and they don't see the profit for everybody.
Hello Uwe,
you are not alone!
In my band it's the same problem.
We are seven bandmembers. I am the "technical" leader and begin using BandHelper at the beginning of the year.
Everybody was very enthusiastic about this: No more paper, easy synchronizing, and so on.
With me there are only two bandmembers, who are really using the App, or the web.
A third one looks at rehearsals on the tablet of the second one, cause he is too lazy to print the songs for himself.
The others installed the app and sometimes they look into it, but they all still use their papers.
You are absolutely right. This is really annoying!-
I think an easy mode is not a bad idea at all.
But the biggest problem is, that they are too lazy to learn something new.
Good point about the videos being English only. I wish I had the resources to offer all the documentation and marketing materials in other languages. Maybe you can still use the video as a guide to give your bandmates a tour of the app?
I personally find it hard to accept that clicking Repertoire > Set Lists > [set list name] > Big Lyrics is too much for someone to learn. I too have bandmates that use the app minimally or not at all, but this has more to do with "I already keep all my stuff in a notebook and I don't want to change that" or "I've never downloaded an app and I only use my phone for text messages." When we had simpler tools, like a private web page listing all our charts, the same people didn't use those, either.
On the other hand, I had a bandmate who was always clicking Repertoire > Songs at home and didn't realize there was a set list function with a special view for practicing songs. So I was thinking about rearranging the menus to put the view-oriented items first in each module (Repertoire > Set Lists, Schedule > Calendar, Finance > Totals). One approach to a "simple mode" would be to take this idea further and only show those items.
If we locked users out of everything but the set list view, people would say, "I want a simple mode that also lets me see upcoming events," etc, and the simple mode could end up more complicated than the current app. Even saying "I want a simple mode with a button that lets me see the rest of the app" would create a significant design challenge.
I do agree with the concern. I see plenty of subscriptions expire because only the band leader uses the product and the rest of the band doesn't see the value. I just wonder if this can be solved solely through design updates, or if we also need to give band leaders more support in selling the product to their bandmates. That has been one of my priorities this year, with more documentation, tips emailed to new subscribers, and the comics series highlighting various app benefits.
Hi,
Thanks your responses.
I try really hard to 'sell' BH to my bandmates.
My main problem:
1. getting them To start using the app
2. Avoid frustration
The first will be solved when we are able to handle the second problem.
Most often the problem is not getting into the skirt and prepared layout.
It is when they get lost because they pushed some buttons and get somewhere else or they do not remember how to get back and so on.
This is very common behavior.
I would not try to make several restricted misses but one that has what most people need:
To see one setlist in one layout for rehearsal (before you are a self confident user you don't enter a stage using BH, do you?).
Let them get the experience that is better than paper.
Then go to the next level with the full app.
Jm2c
Uwe
Hi
Another way could be a ,favourites page' in BH web and app where every user could set up direct links to certain pages.
So everybody could find simply his way to the needed page directly.
If someone gets lots, just go back to favs and select again.
Cheers
Uwe
I second that. For me BH is a perfect tool. But Im tech-affine. The ,,ordinary" musician is used to a sheet-folder. Open it and play...
When BH has been closed you need to click
Project, Repertoire, Setlists, 2018, setlist, layout to get there. Maybe a Fav or default option would make it easier.
As admin it would be helpful to have an option like ,,see what xyz sees" without logging out and Login in again using xyz account. This could help to support xyz to get his BH setup optimized.
Greets and thx for the great work
I normally am a fan of the shortest way possible to get to my final destination, especially in software.
But I need to say that a simple mode seems to me similar to someone trying to learn the guitar but would like to only have 5 frets first so he does not get overwhelmed with all possibilities.
Don't get me wrong: I am not saying your idea is bad but I rather think that the guys not willing to use BH are rather used to the "old way" it worked. And we all know it takes a lot of personal effort to get over those borders.
We are talking about very few steps here: Project -> Setlist -> Gig -> Layout -> BAM, you are there.
I appreciate that setting up layouts and the basic database is what prevents some from using BH but this is not due to the app :)
My way of getting my bandmates to using Bandhelper was to offer uploading their sheets to the database and making sure that everything they need is in there. Then giving them a first run-through of the app so they know what to focus on.
This was actually done directly at the day of the gig when we were sitting backstage (apart from uploading the documents that is though).
In general: if they miss a click -> close the app and start over again. As if they are lost in the app, I assume they will not find the favorites anymore either.
There is always a way to make it as easy as possible for everybody but the advantages of BH also require some effort of each user ;)
And bringing in effort always includes appreciation for what was actually achieved.
Just my two cents.
QuoteMy way of getting my bandmates to using Bandhelper was to offer uploading their sheets to the database and making sure that everything they need is in there. Then giving them a first run-through of the app so they know what to focus on.
This was actually done directly at the day of the gig when we were sitting backstage (apart from uploading the documents that is though
Tried all that, no use.
They simply get lost to often when trying, then give up.....
Quote from: Wilhelm on August 21, 2018, 12:41:15 AM
When BH has been closed you need to click
Project, Repertoire, Setlists, 2018, setlist, layout to get there.
If you're needing to click 2018 to get to your set list, you can either assign the set list to a future event, or to no event. Then it won't get archived into the year folders.
I'm curious about the comments saying users get "lost" in the app. Do people not figure out that you can click the Back button in the top left corner repeatedly to go all the way back to the main menu if needed? The only places this wouldn't be available are in popup windows, where a Cancel button is in the top left corner instead, or the full-screen document view. I'd love to eliminate the full-screen view because it's hard to support and I think it prevents people from fully using the layout capabilities.
I have considered adding a Bookmarks function, and wanted to do it for the last big update, but it's quite difficult to combine this with the sequential navigation with a back button that my apps have.
I can only tell you what happens.
It's really frustrating sometimes.
But what can you do but but lower the entry step......
Can you say more about what happens when people "get lost"? Where do they go and what do they try to get back?
Hi Arlo,
most often they simply cannot find where they wanted to go.
say: I want listen to a song to rehearse in private and memorize the lyrics.
So, there a layout and a songlist where you have to and select the song.
That already is too much.
The answer I get is: couldn't find it, too complicated, whatever.....
Then they use youtube and listen to a different recording and, well.....
or
they push an unknown button and are not able to go back (or do not care)
because. yes! it's complicated.....
thats what i hear every rehearsal.
BH is great, but its way of getting around is for tekkies, who are able to think in structures.
most musicians are thinking otherwise. and stick to their paper.
another thing I could think of is a feature reduce app.
just one songlist, one layout (preselected by the admin).
click and you're done.
thats what they want.
Quote
BH is great, but its way of getting around is for tekkies, who are able to think in structures.
I'm sorry to learn that only techies can think in structures! ;D
Actually I would think that would be easy for musicians ... but some musicians don't know music theory, which is very logical and structured.
Anyway, I am considering this; in fact, I was thinking about it before you started this thread. The main issue I see is that people will want the simple mode but then they'll want exceptions made for this or that, which leads to even more complexity than we started with. But perhaps we can start with something truly simple and then beta test it and see if it has the desired effect.
By the way, a problem with going straight to a preselected set list and layout is that users wouldn't be able to get to the set list share functions -- so they wouldn't be able to print their own set lists or songbooks if they want to. Would that function be missed?
A less brutally reductive approach is that clicking Repertoire would take you to the list of set lists, and clicking a set list would take you to the list of layouts, where the share functions are. But you would bypass the repertoire menu (songs, custom fields, tags, etc).
Sounds great.....
People always want more and often more than they can carry.
Perhaps a way is to say: This mode/app/whatever can do that and thats it.
Works more often than not.
Looking forward to it.
Thanks.
Uwe - I have recently started using the "Update" notification in Bandhelpr, so when I save a change to setlist it sends an email and/or SMS text. The message has a link in it, and that link will open Bandhelper program and goes to the setlist in question...automatically. Would that type setup help your guys - here guys, click this link for the setlist?
Hi,
Thanks.
Looked into this but it's not what I need.
There's still the login page first.
A self generated link that sits on the desktop and leads directly to the named page would be fine though.
Cheers
Uwe
Quote
Looked into this but it's not what I need.
There's still the login page first.
Actually if your users are receiving in-app or SMS notifications, and they view those notifications on the mobile device, the link will open to the set list view in the mobile app.
If you want a link to the set list on the website, you can just copy and paste the URL. If the recipient isn't logged in, they'll be presented with the login page and then taken to that set list.
Thanks Arlo.
I'll try that and see.
the concept of having a fav list on a starter page still strikes me as one of the best solutions.
L8
Streamlined workflow.
I suggested Shortcuts/Favourites a long time ago. The menus are great, it's all there but there's so much navigating of them required to use the many product features well.
I notice that, before and after choosing a Project, the right side of the screen is empty. This is the perfect place(s) for Favourites and Recents, either in a list or in named icons (a choice). Existing Icons could be used (smaller if in a list format).
It would contain items that go directly to almost any BandHelper endpoint (usually a chosen Setlist with a given Layout) and you could choose what items go there with a "Add to favourites" star on the top toolbar.
Available items should include Finance | Transactions; Contacts | Contacts; Schedule | Events; Schedule | Calendar etc..
Plus a list of the last 5 or so endpoints not included above, such as the last layout or recording edited, midi parameters etc..
Perhaps Icons are too difficult to name effectively, as they might often need to show
ProjectName/Repertoire/SetLists/ListName/LayoutName
It may be possible to omit "/Repertoire/SetLists" from the descriptor, as this may be obvious from the icons in a list format. Maybe headings per endpoint type is another solution.
ProjectName is also unnecessary if chosen after the Projects screen. In this case, a 2-line name under the icon (in Icons format) containing SetListName<BR>LayoutName is practical.
The 'Back' button would return you to the Shortcuts page, from where the standard menu structure is available, as always.
I'm loving it already.
Thanks for all your work Arlo. It's so good to have a developer who uses his product in anger.
Jerry
Arlo seemed to be wondering how 'most people' use the product. This is how we roll: maybe a typical BH band.
Two of my guys only ever use 2 or 3 setlists, in Split layout. One of those puts all the paper copies next to his tablet.
The bass player usually arranges the sets, but otherwise uses BH as above.
I'm the techie and input most of the lyrics, chords, arrangement instructions and all the recordings (for 2 bands and a duo).
The drummer drives the live show and doesn't mind getting his hands dirty with Accounts and personal lyrics and setting up other folks' tablets for the router and remote control.
Keyboard player has a tablet with BH, rarely looks at it and makes a number of now-familiar mistakes.
When all the tablets are working properly and we 'follow' the drummer, it works like dream!
first off, BH is an absolutely required app for me and it does everything i personally need. i can't gig without it, literally. there's no way i could have 500+ songs/lyrics available to me with the ease and feature-set that BH provides. i've used this app for many years now and have enjoyed the intense amount of work put into it. thank you so much!
but since this topic has come up, i do believe that the usability has a possibility of being improved for new users. i've used the app with 10+ bandmates over the years, and almost everyone needs me to get them started each time we gig. here are my thoughts why:
even though i'm completely familiar with all the functions of the product, it takes 5 clicks from opening the app to get to the appropriate Set or Smart list.
open app
choose Project
choose Rep
choose Smart/Set list
choose correct list
choose layout
now i can perform
depending on multiple accounts or projects, it can be +/- 1 more click from that explanation. that's a lot of clicks. if you don't do that process all the time, you're real-time reading each option, deciding which one and hopefully choosing correctly every time you use the app. i think anyone would agree that's a lot of clicks to get to "performance mode."
that said, i do understand WHY it takes that may clicks - you need to choose the appropriate options as you go. though people ideally want to open the app and perhaps just choose the setlist they need, if they do have other options setup (projects, type of list, etc), they simply need to choose the right thing.
when Layouts became a thing a while ago, although the options increased, so did the complexity of the app. you now have to choose the preferred layout - yet another step before getting to Performance - and honestly the Layout editor i feel is the most difficult part of the app. the Layout choice being another step has somewhat been improved now that you can quickly tap the title of the List you're in and choose from recent Set/Smart lists - i believe i suggested improvement in that area a while ago.
however, i feel that Default Layout installation isn't always consistent. just last night i installed BH on a new bandmate's iPad, and there were Zero layouts. maybe it's because i deleted them from my Master account a long time ago? but regardless, i had to quickly set one up at the gig for them, and there are so many steps and options available to setup for how i want to run the app.
again, having all these options are great, but it just takes time to learn them and remember them when you're setting up a new user. double-edged sword for sure.
the most success i have with bandmates using this app is for me to personally setup all their devices myself - then it's consistent and if they ask each other "where is this button" or something, it's all the same, rather than "oh i put this here, but you didn't" etc. (i believe you can share layouts, but that's not the point i'm trying to make). then after i set everything up the same (which takes time in bands of 5 or more), when we're at the gig, especially if it's a week or more between gigs, i have to go to every device and get them to the appropriate list that we're using that day. the 5+ clicks to get there is just too confusing for people who are primarily focusing on setting up their music gear, and getting ready for the performance.
once we're all in the same list, THEN it's a piece of cake for everyone. click the song, scroll the lyrics, etc. easy. (sorry, screenshare or linking just doesn't work all the times i've tried, for various reasons - tech and preference.)
so how can this be improved? hard to say. again (again!), the options provided are amazing and i wouldn't change them or remove them. but as with anything, more options means more setup or complication along the way.
--
one initial idea (without much thought on implementation) is perhaps to have a sort of "Master" account and then have "band-member" or somehow "non-master" accounts attached to it when we make users. this would primarily help bands or someone who is the leader that works with various musicians. let's say i am the Master account. i have access to all the current options, screens, controls, etc. i add the songs, i assign tags, i make set-lists, i create smart-lists, etc. i do all of that. (i do it all anyway!)
but for a "band-member" account, their App goes like this. let's assume they've logged in already and this is just at the gig:
open app - see a list of Set Lists and Smart Lists curated by Master account
Choose the appropriate list
List immediately loads with a curated/designated Layout
so that's 2 clicks to get to the set list - way easier already.
for some details, let's say that the Member Set/Smart list screen shows Set Lists on top, divider, Smart Lists below. maybe at the very bottom of this Set List page is a button for Settings/Options, but maybe this isn't even needed. creating Layouts for different devices could be a challenge if the Master only has an iPhone and not an iPad for example. but maybe the Master can somehow create the Layouts on the band members devices the very first time, and then push the Layouts up to the database for use later. if iPad 10.5, use ___; if iPhone XS Max, use ____; something like that. (i know that thought isn't hashed out much right now). all i know is that i don't want band members responsible for making their own layout.
in my experience, my bandmates typically all want to see the same layout. i've never had anyone want something other than a very basic list of songs, document viewer (chords and lyrics) and perhaps some control like scroll start/stop, and key change. and within those few things, i've never needed to make different layouts due to preference among band members. they almost always view it as "that's where this button is, that's where the list is. this is simply how it works." and even when i explain that they COULD put anything anywhere for themselves, most of the time everyone wants it to be exactly the same for ease of use.
i definitely can understand the desire for a drummer who doesn't sing to only want to see the setlist large on the screen vs the singing guitarist who wants chords and lyrics. so that part may need some adjustment. still, i think it should be open app, see available set/smart lists, open directly to set list - very direct.
so summarizing this idea:
Master Account - all the options available, curates and sets up the available Set/Smart Lists and Layouts for all other band members. has all editing privileges, etc.
Member Account - easy to use "sub" user account of the Master account. once logged into the app the first time, opening the app immediately shows Set/Smart Lists curated by the Master, Layout is pre-determined by the Master as well and doesn't need to be selected after choosing the Set/Smart list. potentially no editing privileges at all.
again this is a loose concept so there are many details to discuss and decide. potentially there could be minimal options on the "member" apps, but i think most band members do not want or need such individual and fine control over their BH experience. if they do, they too can start a "Master" account and learn everything. but the typical guy wants to open the app, see the set lists and go. there is already probably a "Master type" guy in every band already who has brought this app to the band, so that is already taken care of.
ideally changes can be made on the fly from the Master's app, and all other phones/ipads can be updated at the gig (assuming internet connection of course). just in case changes need to be made - which they always do. i think this simplifies the process in many aspects.
--
i had some other loose ideas before typing above, but as i typed, this seemed to me to be a really strong idea. one setup that pushes out to all connected apps. so maybe i'll stop there for now and think of some other ideas later regarding the app in general, even for the "master" user as referenced above. i just think the typical "band member" doesn't need to see layouts, midi presets, recordings, etc.
Quote
just last night i installed BH on a new bandmate's iPad, and there were Zero layouts. maybe it's because i deleted them from my Master account a long time ago? but regardless, i had to quickly set one up at the gig for them, and there are so many steps and options available to setup for how i want to run the app.
That shouldn't happen. If this is the first device in the band with that screen size, it should install a default set. If other devices already have that screen size, those layouts should be shared with this user. If for some reason the device has no layouts, you can either click Help > Utilities > Load Default Layouts, or edit the Users for some existing layouts of the same screen size to share with this user. I'll double-check the logic for that.
Quote
it takes 5 clicks from opening the app to get to the appropriate Set or Smart list.
open app
choose Project
choose Rep
choose Smart/Set list
choose correct list
choose layout
Okay, but for something you do one time at the start of the show, I believe the number of clicks isn't as important as the difficulty in deciding what to click. So here's what we have:
choose Project: Assuming your project name is your band name, this shouldn't be difficult. If you only have one project, this step doesn't exist.
choose Rep: This could take a moment to figure out, but it should be clear that you want Repertoire instead of Events, Finance, Contacts, etc. For Basic accounts, those other options are disabled.
choose Smart/Set list: Could be an issue ... I've seen people choosing Songs because that's the first item, but they knew what to do after being told once. In any case, I'm planning to move Songs below Set Lists and Smart Lists in the menus.
choose correct list: Depends on how you organize your set lists. If you are dating the set lists, they would select the one for today's date. If you're drawing from a number of undated set lists, I imagine a short interaction with bandmates ("What set list are we using today?" "Big Rock Show") that would be about as easy as the old interaction of "hey guys here's your (paper) set list" "okay thanks."
choose layout: I assume this is the least intuitive because layouts don't correspond to something that musicians are already used to doing. But you can rename your layouts as needed (e.g. "Supersonics Layout") or disable all the layouts but one so there's only one choice to select.
In short, is it really a problem that someone gets to one of these menus and doesn't know which item to click? If so, which menu are they getting stuck on? And once they see what to do, do they know the second time, or do they get stuck every time?
If we did have a simple mode that took you directly to a preselected set list and layout, that would bypass all the other app modules -- Events, Finance, Contacts -- which wouldn't matter for Basic accounts but would somewhat defeat the purpose of a Pro account. It would also bypass the share functions, for printing hard copies of set lists or song pages. It could even prevent your bandmates from using the app to practice at home, if they need to select a different set list or layout to practice from. It would basically reduce the app to a song viewer for live shows.
If that's the goal, an option already exists with the screen sharing function. That goes even further in that direction by putting the "master" in complete control of what is displayed, and requiring no app interaction from the other bandmates. They just watch what appears on their screens. You could still mix and match so that more ambitious users could use their own interface, while the rest of the band uses screen sharing.
Quote from: arlo on September 30, 2018, 09:08:30 AM
Okay, but for something you do one time at the start of the show, I believe the number of clicks isn't as important as the difficulty in deciding what to click. So here's what we have:
choose Project: Assuming your project name is your band name, this shouldn't be difficult. If you only have one project, this step doesn't exist.
choose Rep: This could take a moment to figure out, but it should be clear that you want Repertoire instead of Events, Finance, Contacts, etc. For Basic accounts, those other options are disabled.
choose Smart/Set list: Could be an issue ... I've seen people choosing Songs because that's the first item, but they knew what to do after being told once. In any case, I'm planning to move Songs below Set Lists and Smart Lists in the menus.
choose correct list: Depends on how you organize your set lists. If you are dating the set lists, they would select the one for today's date. If you're drawing from a number of undated set lists, I imagine a short interaction with bandmates ("What set list are we using today?" "Big Rock Show") that would be about as easy as the old interaction of "hey guys here's your (paper) set list" "okay thanks."
choose layout: I assume this is the least intuitive because layouts don't correspond to something that musicians are already used to doing. But you can rename your layouts as needed (e.g. "Supersonics Layout") or disable all the layouts but one so there's only one choice to select.
In short, is it really a problem that someone gets to one of these menus and doesn't know which item to click? If so, which menu are they getting stuck on? And once they see what to do, do they know the second time, or do they get stuck every time?
i'm just sharing feedback from 10+ band members over the years. some are good with apps/phones, some aren't. both have shared the same sort of feedback. it just feels like a lot of clicks to get to where they want to get.
yes, once into that list, they're good for the show, so yes, perhaps it ultimately doesn't matter much. but also, yes, even after showing a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc time, even those good with apps get a bit confused with all the options and forget where to go to get to our current show.
as mentioned, i was just presenting an idea that i thought about briefly. for me, screen sharing has never worked too reliably, but also sometimes band members want to have access to the same list, yet look at a different song as they prepare to sing their song while finishing mine, for example.
this is such a powerful app. i definitely am not asking for things to change, as i use many of the amazing features. i'll try to think of some other suggestions in the future for ease of use. i help many people on some other forums as well, and i do get similar feedback. once they figure it out, they're on it. but if they don't use the app for a week or two, they tend to forget things. *shrug*
Here's a question. I'm talking here about improving the workflow for everyone, not adding a separate navigational structure.
I'm guessing most of the frustration here comes from the menu between the list of set lists, and the set list view, where you can either select a layout or select the set list edit or share options. I could potentially add the edit and share options as buttons in the list of set lists, so you could get to them directly from that list. But then how would you select a layout? I considered eliminating multiple layouts and having just one customizable layout, which would eliminate this step, but multiple layouts seem widely enough used to keep them:
http://forum.arlomedia.com/index.php/topic,2015.0.html
The set list view now has a layout edit button, which could easily be expanded to also switch layouts. So when you select a set list, you'd go to the last-used layout, and you could use that button to switch layouts if needed. But then the question is, how would people know that multiple, customizable layouts exist? I expect that in this setup, almost everyone will just use whatever I designate as the default layout and will never move beyond that. I'll get lots of app reviews saying, "I'd like this app if I could make the song list smaller" or whatever. ;-)
This is how the app worked when layouts were first introduced a few years ago, and layouts were unknown by many users. I added this extra menu to make the layouts more visible (and to remove the edit and share buttons from the set list view), but I've heard regular complaints about the extra click since then. So what's a better solution? How can I let people see the layout options without requiring them to select one? This could be as simple as a hint text that appears the first time someone views a set list, or as fancy as ... ?
Quote from: chris@katsukurimedia on September 29, 2018, 04:37:48 PM
however, i feel that Default Layout installation isn't always consistent. just last night i installed BH on a new bandmate's iPad, and there were Zero layouts.
On a side note, I just did some testing on this and couldn't find any problems. If you see further problems, please submit a help ticket so I can look into it.
Quote from: arlo on October 03, 2018, 09:13:46 AM
I'm guessing most of the frustration here comes from the menu between the list of set lists, and the set list view, where you can either select a layout or select the set list edit or share options. I could potentially add the edit and share options as buttons in the list of set lists, so you could get to them directly from that list. But then how would you select a layout? I considered eliminating multiple layouts and having just one customizable layout, which would eliminate this step, but multiple layouts seem widely enough used to keep them:
http://forum.arlomedia.com/index.php/topic,2015.0.html
I remember the magical moment when I found the old-school layout editor, before the change that added the extra menu after selecting a set list. It was like a whole new world of usability was opened up to me. And I personally have six different layouts that I use regularly for different situations.
- Home Practice which is landscape (since I'm often sitting, so my face can be closer to the device) and includes the document viewer on one half of the screen and notes and recording controls on the other half for listening to reference tracks while I'm learning new songs
- Rehearsal New Tunes which is portrait and includes a large document viewer with some recording controls along the bottom for when we're working together in a rehearsal to learn a new song
- Rehearsal Full which is mostly just a document viewer that takes up most of the screen, with next song/previous song buttons at the bottom and a layout action that shows/hides the song list via a three-fingered tap.
- Performance (iPad) which is similar to the Rehearsal Full but without the navigation buttons at the bottom. (I use this in tandem with the following layout)
- Performance (iPhone) which I use on my iPhone in tandem with the Performance (iPad) layout. It has custom fields that show which guitar and tuning I'm using on this song and which guitar and tuning I'm using on the next song, plus large next song and previous song buttons. I use Device Linking to connect the two devices so that my iPad is following the remote control actions on the iPhone. It makes it super easy to move to the next song without needing to monkey around with swiping or selecting from the song list, and it saves the screen real estate on my iPad so that I can make the document viewer bigger.
- Verification which is a layout that I use to flip through the songs in a set list the day before a show just to ensure that everything is in place. It includes the song list, a small document viewer (since I don't really need to read it...I just need to know that something is there for each song), the notes field, and a few custom fields.
But I've also been in situations with a bandmate who struggles with technology. When I'm faced with this situation, I will usually sit down with them (maybe go for coffee or whatever) and show them some of my custom layouts to see if anything jumps out at them as "hey - that's pretty darn cool!" I have even been known to go as far as creating a layout for them on their device with only the bare minimum that would be useful for them (such as a large document viewer, a next song and previous song button, and maybe nothing else!) I name this layout "Tap Here to Start the Show" and then make sure their user is only associated with that layout and no others. That way, whenever they pick a set list in the app, it takes them to the layout listing which now just says "Tap Here to Start the Show." Once they know to tap the band name (for the project) then Repertoire then Set Lists, that usually sticks...and if you're careful about organizing and properly naming your set lists, it should be pretty clear which one of those to select.
It's worked well for me, anyway...
Another question from me. Does anybody think that the term "Repertoire" in the main menu isn't clear enough? Does anyone get stuck at that first menu containing Repertoire, Schedule, Finance, etc.? If "Repertoire" were renamed to "Music," would your bandmates while setting up for a gig know automatically to click that?
Its more a container for managing Setlists
- Setlist Manager?
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Quote from: arlo on October 05, 2018, 08:41:58 AM
Another question from me. Does anybody think that the term "Repertoire" in the main menu isn't clear enough? Does anyone get stuck at that first menu containing Repertoire, Schedule, Finance, etc.? If "Repertoire" were renamed to "Music," would your bandmates while setting up for a gig know automatically to click that?
That's a good idea. For me "Repertoire" is okay, but for someone using the App the first time, Music might be a better term.
Repertoire is the correct term and most know the word, but yeah it is a bit out of place in day to day language. I could see that changing to another term. Music doesn't sound like exactly the right word though. I'll think.
But a quick idea I had was to simply rearrange the Rep menu with some headers. I know you mentioned moving "songs" down the list a bit, so how about something like:
Perform [Header]
Set Lists
Smart Lists
DIVIDER
Edit [Header]
Songs
Layouts
Etc... (Everything else already there)
Even just that would go a long way I think.
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Repertoire is the correct term and most know the word, but yeah it is a bit out of place in day to day language. I could see that changing to another term. Music doesn't sound like exactly the right word though. I'll think.
I know what you mean. Within the context of BandHelper, "music" might make sense, but outside of that context, most people equate "music" with "recordings." So if a marketing blurb said, "BandHelper is an app to manage all your band's music," people would probably think it's like iTunes. I'd have to say more, like "BandHelper is an app to manage all the music your band plays (lyrics, chords, recordings)." That would be a little clunkier than "BandHelper is an app to manage your band's repertoire."
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But a quick idea I had was to simply rearrange the Rep menu with some headers. I know you mentioned moving "songs" down the list a bit, so how about something like:
I really like that. It wouldn't be a big change and wouldn't remove functionality, but would be a gentle hint about where to go. The sections wouldn't even need headings, just groupings, like the list of set lists has groups for undated set lists, dated set lists and the year-by-year archives.
Another option, not mutually exclusive with this, would be to hide the additional menu items for read-only users.
Getting rid of the final menu before the set list view, where you select your layout, would require not only moving the layout selection elsewhere, but moving the Edit Details, Edit Songs, Share Set List and Share Songs buttons elsewhere. One way to do this is make them part of each list item, as in the first screen shot below. Clicking the set list name, instead of one of these buttons, could go directly to the set list view.
I've been thinking of making separate view and edit versions of each page in the app, to make it less edit-oriented overall, in which case I could use the same idea in all the menus. So the Layouts list would look like the second screen shot (with separate buttons for Edit Details and Edit Layout), and the Songs list would look like the third screen shot, as would most of the lists.
One disadvantage to this approach is that the buttons that are already in the lists, like the recording and document buttons in the Songs list and the MIDI buttons in the MIDI Presets list, would move to the view pages for those items. So accessing one of those functions would take an extra click, and you wouldn't be able to scan the list for missing items like you can now.
Another disadvantage is that I'll have to design icons that are easily understandable for things like "Share Set List" and "Edit Layouts." Those are text buttons now. When doing tech support, it might be harder to tell people what buttons to click when the button names aren't displayed.
And it might feel kind of overwhelming to have all those rows of buttons, which is why I made these mockups. This is the approach the website takes, but in the website, the rows are spread across most of the page, rather than squeezed into the left column ... and on the website, buttons can be smaller and still easily clickable.
The advantage would be saving a click whenever you want to use one of the set list, smart list, layout or stage plot edit functions. You wouldn't have to click the title, then click the edit option, as you do now. And saving a click whenever you want to view a set list, assuming you're okay with the last-used layout.
Thoughts?
After mocking up the edit buttons in my last post, I'm not liking that approach -- it seems to create as many problems as it solves. But now I'm working on grouping the menus, with the most common items in a separate group at the top, and I'm really liking this. It feels clean and easily understandable, with no disadvantages. See the first and second screen shot below.
Building on that idea, I could add a "Shortcuts" section to those menus, which would automatically show the items you'd most likely be selecting on the next page. Clicking those would skip the next page. For example, the Repertoire menu could show the set list for the next event, and clicking that could go straight to the set list view, skipping the list of set lists and the layout / edit / share selection. So that would eliminate what are likely the two least intuitive steps when clicking a shortcut, but all those options would still be accessible by clicking the Set Lists menu item as before. So I think the only downside here is cluttering up the menu with the shortcuts. See the third and fourth screen shots below.
If I added this shortcuts function, it could be a little different in each module. For Repertoire, I imagine it could show the set list for the next event, plus any set lists or smart lists that you designate. So you could basically build a custom list of set lists or smart lists for your band, and most users could just select from that and never see the full lists of set lists or smart lists. I think this would get pretty close to the "simple mode" originally proposed by this thread, without actually requiring a separate mode. So band leaders could benefit from the shortcuts, too. ;)
So my main question now is whether adding the shortcuts section would be worth it, or whether it would be cleaner and easier to navigate the menus without it.
Here are some attempts to show shortcuts on the module menus in a less cluttered way ... or rather, to strike a visual balance between the shortcuts and the regular menu items.
The first pair of screen shots just moves the shortcuts section after the primary menu items.
The second pair moves them there and removes the Shortcuts heading.
The third pair places the shortcuts within the same group as their corresponding menu item.
Why not use the empty right field for shortcuts?
Greets
Wilhelm
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Why not use the empty right field for shortcuts?
The right side is not available on phones, and is never used for navigation.
Ok good point
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Check out the new app versions that were released today. The main menus for each module are grouped with the one or two items that your bandmates will need at the top. That change is visible for everyone now.
You can also enable a hidden change to beta test it. Click Help > Utilities > Enable Menu Shortcuts. Then go to the Repertoire menu and the set list for the next event will appear in a Shortcuts section at the top. Clicking this will take you directly to the set list view, using your last-used layout. If you want to add shortcuts to more set lists (say, the next three) you can adjust Settings > Appearance > Menu Shortcuts > Set Lists. And if you want to add undated set lists or smart lists to the shortcuts, you can go to Repertoire > Set Lists > [set list name] > Edit Details or Repertoire > Smart Lists > [smart list name] > Edit and turn on Add to Shortcuts.
So, if you're using dated set lists or you've designated your undated set lists or smart lists as shortcuts, the click path to the set list view would be: Repertoire > [set list name]. But you can still get to other set lists, or the set list share functions, by using the original menu items below the shortcuts section.
Similarly, the Events menu shows shortcuts for the next upcoming events, and the Contacts module shows shortcuts for the most overdue actions. The Finance module simply shows a shortcut to add a transaction.
I think this is a worthwhile addition, and my only question now is exactly how to visually present the shortcuts. I need to strike a balance between the shortcuts and the other menu items, so novice users won't look past the shortcuts but advanced users won't miss the other options below.
By the way, eventually this will be turned on for everyone and the Enable Menu Shortcuts utility will go away. But you would still be able to hide the shortcuts function by lowering the Settings > Appearance > Menu Shortcuts options to 0.
And this is not directly related to this function but will be useful when viewing set lists with shortcuts: if you want to change to a different layout, you can now click the Edit Layout button in the bottom toolbar and it will include the list of available layouts, so you can jump directly to a different layout without leaving the set list view.
Hi arlo,
really like the idea of the shortcuts-section and just turned it on as you explained.
Still, the upcoming gig is not showing if I do not activate the "ADD_TO_SHORTCUT"-function in the setlist-details.
Did I misunderstand the addition of this function as I thought, the next "x" setlists (while "x" is defined in the settings) will automatically be shown in the shortcuts-section...
Best Regards,
Chris
Does your set list have a date (for Basic accounts) or is it attached to an event (for Pro accounts)? Those dates determine what the next set lists are.
Hi arlo,
the setlist I am referring to indeed has the date of this Saturday so it should be in the shortcuts I guess.
Still, neither on my iPad nor iPhone, it is shown. Unless I check the "Add_to_Shortcuts"-trigger of course
Can you submit a help ticket?
Sure, will do.
This is a nice addition, thanks!
Is there a way to hid modules for certain users?
Yes, the settings under Settings > Appearance > Menu Shortcuts are per-device and per-module. So one user can use all the shortcuts, one user can use them for just one module and one user can not use them at all.
Quote from: arlo on October 14, 2018, 10:25:25 AM
Check out the new app versions that were released today. The main menus for each module are grouped with the one or two items that your bandmates will need at the top. That change is visible for everyone now.
You can also enable a hidden change to beta test it. Click Help > Utilities > Enable Menu Shortcuts. Then go to the Repertoire menu and the set list for the next event will appear in a Shortcuts section at the top. Clicking this will take you directly to the set list view, using your last-used layout. If you want to add shortcuts to more set lists (say, the next three) you can adjust Settings > Appearance > Menu Shortcuts > Set Lists. And if you want to add undated set lists or smart lists to the shortcuts, you can go to Repertoire > Set Lists > [set list name] > Edit Details or Repertoire > Smart Lists > [smart list name] > Edit and turn on Add to Shortcuts.
So, if you're using dated set lists or you've designated your undated set lists or smart lists as shortcuts, the click path to the set list view would be: Repertoire > [set list name]. But you can still get to other set lists, or the set list share functions, by using the original menu items below the shortcuts section.
Similarly, the Events menu shows shortcuts for the next upcoming events, and the Contacts module shows shortcuts for the most overdue actions. The Finance module simply shows a shortcut to add a transaction.
I think this is a worthwhile addition, and my only question now is exactly how to visually present the shortcuts. I need to strike a balance between the shortcuts and the other menu items, so novice users won't look past the shortcuts but advanced users won't miss the other options below.
By the way, eventually this will be turned on for everyone and the Enable Menu Shortcuts utility will go away. But you would still be able to hide the shortcuts function by lowering the Settings > Appearance > Menu Shortcuts options to 0.
And this is not directly related to this function but will be useful when viewing set lists with shortcuts: if you want to change to a different layout, you can now click the Edit Layout button in the bottom toolbar and it will include the list of available layouts, so you can jump directly to a different layout without leaving the set list view.
I've been busy gigging but wanted to check in to thank you for these recent changes. The re-ordering of the Rep menu is a simple yet very effective change and makes it much easier even for me who's used the app for years.
I keep saying it but this is legitimately the best app and I can't figure without it!
Loving the Shortcuts BUT
I find it "always" shows me the wrong layout.
I use bandhelper for myself in 3 bands (projects), plus all members of a third outfit. I keep a "Homework" setlist in each Project.
So, for rehearsals/practice, I use a "Practice" layout with speed and Recording controls etc; but for gigs, I use "Split View".
The nice new Shortcuts (thank you) remember which Layout I used last in that Project. So, when I get to a gig or a rehearsal/practice, the Layout is frequently wrong because I almost always do some homework between gigs.
Any chance of an option (probably per Project) to remember the last-used Layout per Project or per Setlist, please? Or possibly a drop-down list (not so good).
Thanks Arlo
Happy tweenmas/New Year
Saving the last-used layout for each set list wouldn't work well unless you're pretty much only using two set lists (one for every practice and one for every gig).
I have two suggestions instead:
1) When you finish practicing before a gig, switch to your performance layout.
2) Add the Edit Layout button to both your layouts if it's not already. Then if the shortcut doesn't open to the layout you want, you can use that to quickly switch layouts.
Edit Layout button - good call.
Thanks, Arlo
Some additional usability updates are coming in the next major app release, and are available to preview now:
http://forum.arlomedia.com/index.php/topic,2204.0.html
Hey arlo,
only finding time to write down my latest observation hoping this is the right thread for it.
I really like the shortcut-function showing the upcoming gigs but realized that the gig sometimes vanishes although is it not done yet.
Is this due to the different time-zones (I am based in GMT+1) or does it only work correctly when adding a starting- and end-time?
Regards,
Chris
This shouldn't be affected by the time zone. The cutoff will be the event end time if you entered one, or midnight on the day of the event if not.
I just checked and it's working as expected for me, so please submit a help ticket if you find an example that isn't working.
Understood.
Will keep this behavior in mind and submit one if needed.
Thanks for the explanation.
Regards, Chris
To start with, it blows my mind that musicians that have a chance to use this app, after someone else has done all the heavy lifting, would just give up on it.
Having said that I do understand there are "those people" out there, and to be honest, I could see myself using a "simple mode" once i have done all the setting up and editing. If i could go into settings and choose simple mode or normal mode. And simple mode just had labelled icons on the main page (that the administrator sets up) which would take me directly to the setlist and layout that I want, i would probably use that for gigs and/or rehearsals. Then just go back to the normal mode if I need to add tunes or do any edits that can't be done on the website.
After the user survey earlier this month, I talked with a few people who specified that what they mean by "easier to use" is mainly "fewer clicks to navigate through the menus." So I'm currently testing a change that would flatten the navigation and, in conjunction with the existing shortcuts function, essentially create a "simple mode" for your bandmates. Details are here:
http://forum.arlomedia.com/index.php/topic,2355.0.html