Apps by Arlomedia

Set List Maker => MIDI Help => Topic started by: Geowonders on May 10, 2019, 09:52:58 AM

Title: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 10, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
I've been sending Bank/Program changes from my Roland A-49 MIDI controller to my Ketron SD2 sound module via its MIDI IN port but that's too tedious for live concert. To make it instantaneous, I purchased an iPad, Set List Maker, and the MIDI upgrade. I've added Songs, put them into a Show, and am ready to enter the Bank/Program numbers, but that will accomplish nothing without connectivity. I expected a USB port on my iPad but no such thing, so what other devices do I need?
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 10, 2019, 11:40:24 AM
You can either get a MIDI interface with a Lightning connector to go directly into your iPad, or get a MIDI interface with a USB connector plus an iPad "camera connection kit" to go from Lightning to USB. Some recommendations are listed here:

https://www.arlomedia.com/apps/setlistmaker/support/hardware.html
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 10, 2019, 03:05:27 PM
The attached picture (Cable 1) came with my iPad. I found the picture on Wikipedia. They label it Apple Lightning to USB Cable (MD818). Is this the first option you mentioned? If so, I'm still lost because my sound module and my controller are 5-pin MIDI ports. The attached picture (Cable 2) is a USB to MIDI converter which I use to connect the Ketron sound module to my DAW. The cable's OUT plug connects to the IN port of the module. I'm envisioning a router of sorts which receives data from both the iPad and the Roland, and sends them along to the Ketron sound module.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 10, 2019, 03:08:58 PM
Somehow, the first photo did not attach, so here it is.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 10, 2019, 05:22:04 PM
The USB male to Lightning male cable isn't going to do anything for you here. You'd need a camera connection kit, which is basically a USB female to Lightning male adapter, to connect a MIDI interface with a USB jack to an iPad.

Is your question about how to connect three MIDI devices together? For that you have three options:

1) Connect a MIDI Thru port on one device to a MIDI In port on another device. But not all devices have MIDI Thru ports.

2) Replace your 1-port MIDI interface with a multi-port MIDI interface.

3) Add a MIDI splitter between your 1-port MIDI interface and your other devices.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 16, 2019, 01:59:31 AM
Though some guys on Keyboard Forum have suggested a powered USB hub, scrolling down on the following web page shows a USB-To-MIDI Converter like the one I already have apparently doing what I wish to do, which is my already-powered controller and module exchanging data in the iPad.

https://www.amazon.com/SANOXY-Cable-Converter-Keyboard-Window/dp/B0017H4EBG

My attachment illustrates the idea clearly. One of the guys said it should work, but that I might need to install an app like Midflow to merge the data. What say ye?
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 16, 2019, 02:17:50 AM
Yes, I guess if you're only sending out from the keyboard and only sending in to the SD2, then you don't need a splitter; you'd just need the camera connection kit to connect your USB MIDI interface to your iPad.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 16, 2019, 05:27:04 AM
Thanks. And will I need another app to merge the notes and programs?
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 16, 2019, 09:29:00 PM
I don't think so. What do you think you might need that for?
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 17, 2019, 08:51:53 AM
A guy on Keyboard Forums who's helped me with some technical issues thought I might need that. I suppose it's because when the Roland's notes reach the iPod, they're like cattle entering a pasture - if you want them to head down the chute towards the Ketron, you need some cowboys to herd them that direction and rope the ones that might like the iPod grass. It seems that the Ketron has to receive the notes from the Roland. I can only guess that something has to make them to go there.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 17, 2019, 09:08:46 AM
You mean the keyboard's messages need to go both to Set List Maker and to the Ketron? Then yes, that wouldn't happen automatically. You could either use another app, or you could turn on Settings > Audio & MIDI > MIDI Thru in Set List Maker.

Are you wanting to use the keyboard to play notes? I interpreted your first message to mean you were just using it to send program changes. You could try sending all the notes through MIDI Thru, but you might need your note messages to be sent more directly.

Now I'm thinking the keyboard doesn't have to send messages to Set List Maker at all. It would be best to spell out what kinds of MIDI messages you want to send, from what device to what device, to get the best answer.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 17, 2019, 10:21:31 AM
Here is the situtation: I play a Yamaha P-125 in concert. My Roland A-49 sits on a 2nd tier, adding Ketron instruments to the mix via MIDI out to Ketron's MIDI in. The Roland can send patch changes to the Ketron, but it's tedious, so I hope to use an iPad loaded with Set List Maker for telling Ketron which patch. The USB-TO-MIDI Converter apparently is intended to achieve that, but maybe not without an app which receives Roland's note data, combines it with Set List Maker's Bank/Program data, and sends both to the Ketron. The guy on Keyboard Forums thinks it will work. I will quote his final remark: And if you use an app like Midiflow to merge the Roland's Note data with the Set List Maker's patch changes and send the merged data to the Ketron then you don't need a USB hub.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 17, 2019, 02:03:17 PM
So you just want to send MIDI notes from the keyboard to the Ketron, and program changes from the iPad to the Ketron?
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 17, 2019, 03:15:12 PM
Yes. But, of course, I've been getting the notes to Ketron via a standard MIDI cable from the Roland. But now, the USB-to-MIDI converter will occupy that port on the Ketron, and the Roland's notes will go to the iPad, not the Ketron. I know that because if I use my Converter instead of my standard MIDI cable, the Ketron will not sound unless (1) the converter's USB end is connected to my computer and (2) my Cakewalk has a song open. This tells me that the iPod must receive the notes, then send them to the Ketron. I'm assuming Set List Maker is not intended to function in that respect.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 17, 2019, 04:51:47 PM
I think you're describing a MIDI Thru function in Cakewalk, which Set List Maker has. I was just concerned about latency with the notes you're playing.

You could try it since you already have that equipment. But if you have trouble passing all the note messages into the iPad and back out reliably, you could add a MIDI merger like this:

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodmrg.htm

So then the connections would be:

keyboard MIDI Out to merger In 1
iPad Lightning to USB interface
USB interface Out to merger In 2
merger Out to Ketron In
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 17, 2019, 05:33:44 PM
Thanks for all your attention to this. I will be giving it a try. If I find the path, I'll write and illustrate the details clearly for others.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 25, 2019, 06:07:34 PM
The Lightning to USB adapter arrived. I plugged my USB-TO-MIDI Converter into it with MIDI from the Roland and MIDI to the Ketron. I opened a song on Set List Maker and entered values for MSB and Program (harmonica). I can't say I expected to hear anything when I played the Roland, and, of course, I didn't. What has to happen next?
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 25, 2019, 10:59:53 PM
Did you turn on MIDI Thru in Set List Maker?
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 26, 2019, 05:27:07 AM
I have "Added MIDI Devices" naming them Ketron (Ch 1) and Roland (Ch 2), but I haven't found how to turn on MIDI Thru for the Roland. When I touch its keyboard, the MIDI icon on Set List Maker lights.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 26, 2019, 08:32:39 AM
I found it under Audio & MIDI, at the very bottom. I now have sound. My song has MSB & Program values, but that instrument has not yet arrived. Instead, I'm getting simply the default piano. Also, I'm getting notes that I am not playing - holds, repeats, and other residue.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 26, 2019, 09:00:20 AM
You can click the MIDI icon in the top toolbar and look at the Activity Log to troubleshoot repeated or extra notes. You can play a single note and then see if it is received by Set List Maker multiple times. That would indicate that one of the other devices also has a MIDI thru function and is creating an infinite loop, and the solution would be to turn that off on the other device.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 26, 2019, 05:08:41 PM
The Ketron has only a volume slider – no other controls. I would suppose its MIDI Thru port is its only “setting.”
The Roland A-49 Owner's Manual uses the term Thru only in the Trouble Shooting section. It says:

Problem:
Duplicate notes sound

Confirmation:
Is the sound module set to Local On?
Is the software’s THRU function turned on?

Resolution:
Configure as follows.
Sound module: Local Off
Software’s THRU function: Off
For details, refer to the owner’s manual for the
equipment you are using.

In other words, Roland seems to be saying the Set List Maker's MIDI Thru will cause duplicate notes if it's ON.

But suddenly, I can't get any MIDI to the iPod. I've rebooted, turned the other units off and on, and switched MIDI Thru on and off. Nothing. The MIDI icon does not light.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 26, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
After several trials, I've discovered that MIDI will not play unless these steps are followed:
1. Connect the Lightning and the USB devices. Those - the Ketron & Roland - can be off or on. It doesn't matter.
2. Power up the iPad.
3. Touch the MIDI icon in the tool bar. The MIDI Status will say MIDI Stopped.
4. Touch that stripe and it will say MIDI Running.

At that moment, the sound is working.

I see, by your suggestion, that playing 1 note makes 4 entries in the Activity Log: 2 received data and 2 sending data to all ports.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: Geowonders on May 26, 2019, 07:59:46 PM
You can lay this problem aside. When I found tonight that various approaches would have sound or not have sound with no easy or obvious path, and when I saw that waking the iPad from sleep caused the MIDI to be off with no obvious way to get it back other than rebooting and/or replugging the Lightning, I contacted Apple and was granted permission to return it. Thanks for all your efforts. I just can't imagine dealing with this while the band is waiting, and the audience is wondering what's the problem.
Title: Re: What Other Devices?
Post by: arlo on May 26, 2019, 11:25:38 PM
I've never seen a situation where the devices need to be connected while the iPad is off, or where the MIDI stops working after the iPad sleeps. If you haven't sent it back yet, I bet there is a solution ... but it might involve a more direct network setting rather than passing all the note messages through an intermediate device.