Author Topic: Automation action  (Read 3939 times)

Krystofur

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Automation action
« on: November 07, 2015, 07:10:48 AM »
I perform using a balanced mix of recordings and SLM metronome tracks. In the past, when I set automations for song completion actions based on "duration", with auto select next song,  it appeared as if the time for duration started once the song was highlighted and not when the recording or SLM metronome was started by me. So, if I needed to wait for someone to tune for 25 seconds, the next recording or click would end 25 seconds sooner...cutting it short.

I figured the best way to fix this was set automation actions against recording, leaving auto select next song on, and setting the tempo and pitch settings to end the metronome against song duration. So this works...the clicks end on time...delays do not cut tracks or clicks short...BUT when I play to a SLM maker metronome track, when the metronome ends the next song is NOT highlighted, but IS when my recordings end.

I get WHY this may be happening because I bet the automation settings are the priority, but is there a way to get both methods to auto select the next song whether it uses a SLM click or recording? Also, is it true that when duration is used for automation, that song highlight starts the clock - not starting the click or track? No one in my band believes me...but im the guy who sees the tracks stopping short when we lolly gag between songs and I have a track highlighted.

Thanks.

arlo

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 07:40:48 AM »
Quote
I get WHY this may be happening because I bet the automation settings are the priority, but is there a way to get both methods to auto select the next song whether it uses a SLM click or recording?

Do you mean you want the song completion action to be triggered by the song duration if no recording is playing, or by the recording if a recording is playing?

Quote
Also, is it true that when duration is used for automation, that song highlight starts the clock - not starting the click or track?

Yes, the song duration is counted from when the song is selected, not when you start a recording or tempo (because some people don't use recordings or tempos, but still need to track the song duration).

If the problem is that you have variable lengths of time between songs, then the easiest solution would be to stop using the song completion action to select the next song, but instead manually select it when you are ready to start playing it. Then you can also enable the song selection actions to play recordings and tempos; if you are manually starting those now, you won't have any additional clicks because you would be selecting the song at the time you were previously starting the recording or tempo.

Alternatively, you can leave the song completion action on, and if you sometimes have a longer pause between songs, you can reselect the song when you are ready to start playing, to restart its timer. But in that case you would also need to start your recording or tempo manually, so you would have two clicks for each song. Using a song completion action to select the next song, in conjunction with a song selection action to start things for each song, only works when you have a consistent amount of time between songs (as determined by the Time Between Songs setting in the show) and are prepared to follow the timing of the software with no unplanned pauses.

Krystofur

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 09:41:03 AM »
Ok...yea. I could definitely clarify my question better.

I use both recordings and the SLM metronome in any performance. I have song completion triggered by recording, because as you confirmed, the highlighting of the song starts counting against song duration if one uses that method instead.

When performing songs that use recordings, the track ends and the next track is automatically selected. When performing songs that only have a metronome, with tempo settings set to stop the metronome based on song duration, the next track is not selected. And what I meant by priority was that is appears like SLM in that instance considers the trigger only as a recording ending to take the action of next song selection. So it would then also mean that the ending of a metronome, set by song duration elsewhere, is not a trigger that can be used as the end of a song to auto select the next.

As the drummer, I use a dual foot switch to start clicks or recordings. I find sometimes a sweaty hand is the enemy! I also leave the metronome set up for songs that use recordings - so should they fail I can at least keep the band on tempo. So start tempo on select would not work.

So, is there anyway to auto select the next song after a SLM metronome song if one is triggering action by recording only? I suspect not, but was hoping there was something I was missing.

I'm trying, at the same time to use the time between song feature and stay with recording length as the trigger.

In the end, I may just need to make recordings of clicks to have it work the way I want it to.

Any further insight?

Thanks.

arlo

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 12:35:13 PM »
No, there is currently no way to trigger song completion actions by both recordings and song durations depending on the song.

So, creating recordings of your click tracks would be one solution.

Why not use my suggestion of using song selection actions instead of song completion actions, and manually selecting the next song when you are ready to play it? Because you sometimes want to start a recording but not a tempo for a song?

arlo

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 10:17:08 AM »
The new app version released today supports this. A song completion action will be triggered by the end of an automation track, or by a recording if there's no automation track, or by the defined duration if there's no recording:

http://forum.arlomedia.com/index.php/topic,1786.0.html

Ahiru

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 01:28:26 PM »
Adding comment to this thread about today's new release, since I suspect it is related to this new behavior...

I have set lists with Actions as:
Automation Start/Stop = Song Second Selection
Send MIDI = Song Second Selection
Select Next Song = Song Completion
(No other Actions have values set)

All the songs have Automation, which kicks off a backing track recording, MIDI sends, custom lyric scrolling.  Songs also have a duration attribute (set to the same as the recording).

In the previous version this all resulted in the desired behavior: a first click on a song (or end of previous song) just stayed on that song 'forever', doing nothing until the second click.  Then it played all the automation and 'virtually' did the Song First Selection to the next song, and waited for me to do the Second Selection again.

Now in the new version it appears that it will automatically advance to the next song without having to to perform a second click at all.  This advance appears to occur after a time equal to the the song duration after the Song First Selection event.  To clarify:

Select Song-1 once
[Do nothing to select Song-1 a second time, so song automation, recording, etc. is not played]
After Song-1 duration has passed, Song-2 is selected
[Do nothing to select Song-2 a second time, so song automation, recording, etc. is not played]
After Song-2 duration has passed, Song-3 is selected
and so forth

Is there something different I now need to do to stop the advancing without actually starting the song with the Song Second Selection?

arlo

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2017, 04:09:50 PM »
The song duration timer is started when you first select a song, and then restarted if you start it a second time. This hasn't changed as far as I can see. This usually doesn't matter because usually you wouldn't wait the entire duration of a song before selecting it a second time to start performing it. Is it a problem for you?

Ahiru

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 07:20:05 PM »
Well, my preference would be that it would not automatically go to the next song unless I actually played the current song, so there's no implicit countdown timer in case of extended banter during a performance.  It sure doesn't seem like that's how it worked before, but maybe I just didn't notice it (which would argue for it not being a problem  :-\).

arlo

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2017, 07:58:41 PM »
I guess I could not start the elapsed time counter until the second selection if any song second selection and song completion actions are defined. That seems complicated, but might be intuitive. I'll have to check and see if that would mess up any other functions that use the song elapsed time.

Krystofur

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 06:40:19 PM »
This is exactly the problem I posted earlier on the update thread.

Previously, when using recordings or automations as the other user has noted, simply highlighting a song would NOT start a timer leading to another action based on duration. The song would stay highlighted and not auto select next based on time, but only on the end of the recording as I had set up and spoke to above. In my case, for example, the next song would not be selected based on duration, but at the end of a recording of automation which is exactly what I have been using and has now changed. And it is definitely a problem.

Unless...what you are saying is that IF you start a recording it will wait until the recording is over, and not duration, before selecting the next song is selected then I guess that's ok but it's not how it was. If you're someone who doesn't have a recording attached to every song to override the duration issue then you would need to put pauses in your sets to hold position and not auto advance.

But this is definitely a new bug or issue in this update.

Krystofur

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 06:48:30 PM »
One more thing. Unlike what you said above - even if I have a recording assigned to a song it is still using duration and not overriding to track/recording duration.

For example, I have a recording I use to sound check my sample tracks in the first set each show. I have made it a song and attached a 1 minute track to it. HOWEVER, I only assigned the song a 1 second duration so it does not add time to my sets when I build them. I noticed that when I highlight the song and wait on the sound man for a signal to check the tracks - it has already automatically selected the next song while I was waiting and NOT playing the recording. Like I said - this is definitely something new and highly undesirable.

Is there a setting I'm missing or one that moved or is it a change in the update?

arlo

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2017, 08:55:23 AM »
The only thing that has changed is what you were asking for in the first post of this thread: song completion actions are now triggered by a recording or automation track if you're using one and by a duration if you're not, rather than only recordings or only durations as before. Perhaps the confusion is that "using a recording" is defined as playing a recording, not merely having a recording attached to the song. This means once you start playing a recording, the duration trigger will be ignored. But if you select a song and then wait the entire length of the song before playing its recording, the completion action will be triggered when the duration runs out. This limitation was there before when using durations as the trigger, and is there now always because now durations are always a trigger when a recording or automation track isn't playing.

You've implied, but haven't stated explicitly, that that's what's happening, so I'll ask again: is the problem you're seeing because you're waiting several minutes between songs? As a secondary question, is that a problem during performances or only during rehearsals?

Krystofur

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 11:26:13 AM »
normally one would not be waiting beyond the self entered duration of the song to start a recording. i would agree. the one instance where i noticed it was when the song duration i entered was 0:01 because it is a track i use to soundcheck samples - so i don't want it adding "time" to a set length. as long as once an automation or recording starts that then gets priority over duration - then trax should not be getting cut short. ill keep an eye on that now that i better understand the intended functionality.

as long as i know what's going on now - it's probably managable. but i haven't played around with it enough yet.

arlo

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 11:47:28 AM »
Quote
normally one would not be waiting beyond the self entered duration of the song to start a recording. i would agree. the one instance where i noticed it was when the song duration i entered was 0:01 because it is a track i use to soundcheck samples - so i don't want it adding "time" to a set length.

For that scenario, you could create a set name called Sound Check, turn on Exclude From Total Duration for that set name, and make a set with that name containing your sound check test song. Then you could give the song a long duration, and if it still triggered a song completion action, that would just advance you to the start of the next set.

Krystofur

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Re: Automation action
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 05:38:21 AM »
i like that idea because using a "pause" also kinda works but where is that setting for duration? it's obviously something new to me. where can i find it?

thanks