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Author Topic: Notification & automation offset  (Read 6630 times)

zgildasz

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Notification & automation offset
« on: July 10, 2023, 01:42:24 am »
Hi Arlo,

2 ideas : first it could be great to have an option for a slm notification just for swap from another App to return to it.

Second, what about an offset for the automation, per screen layout. The exemple is someone send to me a bluetooth midi signal to launch my automation, but I need to have two versions or the same song, one for me at home to work, and the second for live with an automation just a little modified to compensate the latence of midi bluetooth. And because I'm using 2 screen layout, one for home work (let's imagine the automation offset on this one is "0") and one for live with the automation offset on "-0,65" to compensate the midi bluetooth latence.

arlo

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2023, 10:52:40 am »
For the automation offset, are you using Set List Maker's Live Sharing functionality to share actions between devices? If so, you can use Settings > Live Sharing > Share Actions > Delay Actions on the lead device so actions triggered on the lead device are delayed to match actions triggered on the following device.

Please start a separate thread for your app changing question and specify there what platform you're using.

zgildasz

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2023, 12:00:44 pm »
I'm the only one to use SLM. The midi signal is send by ableton/midi bluetooth.

arlo

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2023, 12:14:52 pm »
In that case I think the best solution is to send the MIDI message from Ableton a little sooner than its other actions to compensate for the transmission delay.

zgildasz

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2023, 01:09:45 pm »
We have tried it but without success. And it was very difficult just to send a midi note or cc from a simple midi track on ableton, because the midi signal was send one time and that's all. We have understood that the midi signal send on each start with success was realized only if the midi track send an information whith a changing state. In that case a cc from 127 to 0 was ok. I know it could appear very weird but we spend more than 3 hours to understand it. Anyway I can continue with 2 versions of the same song with one with automation compensate the latence.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 01:10:30 pm by zgildasz »

arlo

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2023, 03:23:10 pm »
Maintaining two copies of each song is a lot of extra work and I would recommend finding any other solution. But it doesn't make sense to add a negative offset on the iPad because that's like moving back in time. It would make more sense to delay the other actions in Ableton. I'm not sure why you can't do that, but I don't use Ableton so maybe you just can't.

If there is no way to synchronize the two apps but you have created an automation track in BandHelper that plays in sync with Ableton, can you just use that when performing or practicing? Are you trying to synchronize it with something else when practicing?

zgildasz

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2023, 11:07:11 pm »
Well, i'm not using ableton too and didn't know it well. The person who using it doesnt like to go to much deep in modifications of his setup.

And yes there's a lot of midi controlled parameter with automation in my setup so I need an automation launched by myself at home and one delayed sooner when ableton launch the start point.

To delay the automations I just modify the first line of each and apply the modification time to all next parameters.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 11:09:35 pm by zgildasz »

zgildasz

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2023, 01:17:22 am »
Beyond ableton, I think this delayed automation option could be seen as a solution to resolve easier the midi bluetooth latence. It's up to you Arlo.

And what about the notification option ? Simple and very useful in the case of 2 apps used.

arlo

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2023, 09:37:28 am »
But I think you're asking for a "negative delay," in other words, starting the automation track before the message to start it is received. Maybe you always have a larger delay built into the automation track and then you want to reduce that to a smaller delay to get the same effect. But if someone had an automation track that started at 0:00, it wouldn't be possible to offset the events earlier than that.

What are you synchronizing with while practicing at home that requires you to have different timing for practice versus during performance? I still don't understand why you can't set it up the way you need it for performance and then use that same setup while practicing.

zgildasz

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2023, 01:07:38 pm »
I'm using three types of commands in automation all synchronized on a background music :

1) sheet music, which doesn't need to have a very precise timing

2) lyrics as karaoke SLM, which doesn't need to be very precise too.

3) midi commands during music to activate guitar cc and vocals step and others types of commands on a voicelive 2. All that type of commands needs to be very precise.

Yes that's a negative delay, and yes that's not possible to delay commands at 0.00 (I've got some commands at zero, but I have to tell that's the 4 times before the start of the song, so commands during these four times don't have to be time precise), but the way I do it is to find the first command after zero, let's imagine 1.00 , and then subtract in my case the latence which is 0.65. Then the 1.00 is now 0.35 , I check "transform all next automations commands" (sorry for the traduction I'm working with the french version) , and that's ok for the rest of the song.

And because I work with 3 screen layout, one better to edit docs, one better to edit midi and one for live performance, I imagine that option on live layout who could be possible to delay the automation in negative way which could process like I do with the first command after zero (except if this first after zero is under the negative delay applied...). That's could be a non destructive way to do it, with the possibility then to adjust it if needed, and without to edit a live version of the song.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 01:15:51 pm by zgildasz »

arlo

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2023, 08:01:02 pm »
What I'm trying to understand is why you need synchronization with different timing during practice versus performance. It sounds like when performing, you are synchronizing to music played from another person's Ableton setup. If that's not correct, what are you synchronizing to? And then what are you synchronizing to while practicing, when I assume that other person and their Ableton setup is not there?

zgildasz

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2023, 11:05:59 pm »
Exactly.

1) at home with the music launched by my tablet.

2) in performance situation with the music launched by ableton on external laptop.

Sorry not beeing clear about that.

arlo

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Re: Notification & automation offset
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2023, 11:57:09 am »
Synchronizing to different audio sources in different situations is an unusual requirement. I would expect that if you had a setup that required this kind of synchronization, you would always use the whole setup, rather than swapping out different elements and trying to make the synchronization still work the same way.

Anyway, if you are only using the recordings on your tablet for practice, you could trim the start of all the recordings by the same amount that you advanced the automation track to compensate for the delay. Then the recordings will play early by the same amount that your automation tracks are playing early. It will be tedious to set this for each individual recording, but not as bad as maintaining two copies of every song.

If I were to change something in the app to handle this, I guess a setting that moves forward every event in an automation track would work, assuming events that are already at 0 would remain at 0. But this seems so specific to your unusual situation that I am not likely to add an option for this. A more general option that compensates for transmission delays for all functions would be better; this already exists for the Live Sharing function. But this is best handled by the device that is sending the messages (that's how the Live Sharing option does it). So ultimately I think the best option is to update the Ableton projects to delay the audio to compensate for the transmission time of the setup messages that it sends out to other devices. Then you wouldn't have to do anything extra on your device to allow it to work in "standalone" mode while practicing.

 

anything