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Author Topic: MIDI help  (Read 6162 times)

martynw2000

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MIDI help
« on: October 17, 2023, 12:21:04 pm »
I need some help guys, - specifically from someone who knows about MIDI, as it may as well be Chinese to me.

After spending hours trying to get my Roland keyboard to change program registrations using BandHelper, I finally came across a post somewhere that said the Roland VR-09 doesn't accept incoming program registration changes. Thinking this was a bit odd, I did more research, and it does appear that way. However, I am wondering if there's a way to send raw MIDI text or coding or whatever to the keyboard to do it? I was reading through the manual, and I found a MIDI implementation guide, but it's way out of my league. I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to look it over for me and tell me if it's possible.

I have attached the manual to this post. I realise it's a big ask, but someone with more MIDI experience might just be able to say "oh yeah, you just do this...."

Thanks in advance.

arlo

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2023, 02:14:24 pm »
I don't know if a "program registration change" is something unique to Roland or if you're just using unusual terminology. A "program change" is very common and it is discussed on page 3 of the manual you posted.

martynw2000

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2023, 02:56:04 pm »
It might just be me using odd terminology. I'm not a technical sort of person. What I meant was all my keyboard sound settings I like to use are stored as programs in banks, but there seems to be no way to call them using midi. It works on my guitar effects processor just fine, I just use channel 1 and whatever number patch I need goes in the right hand box in the midi preset. But on the keyboard there's no way to choose the channel and everything I've read says you can't select programs using midi. So then I looked at the manual, and wondered if there's some way to do it using raw code, but I'm completely stumped when it comes to making sense of that document. So that's what I'm looking for help with. What would I use to call up program 1 in bank 1, for example?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 02:57:11 pm by martynw2000 »

arlo

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2023, 04:27:45 pm »
According to the manual you posted, the keyboard shows both bank and program numbers counting from 1. So in the MIDI Device you added for the keyboard in BandHelper, you can set numbering to 1-128 for simplicity. Then in a MIDI preset you would enter the desired bank number in the Bank LSB field and the desired program number in the Program field (1 and 1 in your example).

If all your programs are in the first 128 banks, you can leave the Bank MSB field empty. If all your programs are in the first bank, you can leave the Bank LSB field empty.

martynw2000

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2023, 01:09:10 am »
Hi Arlo, thanks for your help. Unfortunately, that didn't work - and I think it's because I have the only model of keyboard that doesn't accept program changes via MIDI. Which is strange for Roland, I would have thought it was standard.

See here: https://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?t=58060

martynw2000

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2023, 02:02:50 am »
Having scoured every VR-09 forum I could find on the topic, I also found this...  (so it really does look like my keyboard is the only one out there that cannot receive program changes)

Thanks for trying anyway..

Darug

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2023, 05:16:23 am »
According to page 15 it does.

Sometimes you need to adapt to the way the product works, and it might be different to other things.
On Page 15 all the Preset patches begin there, so it should accept patch changes. If you are looking at basic Program changes, it limits you to 127 songs. IF you use PC/MSB/LSB you can have 16383 songs. ;)
So using this method from Page 15

EG:-
Tone Name         PC# (Tone Number) CC0 (Bank Select MSB) CC32 (Bank Select LSB)
JUNO Str 1              45 (2Ch)                        4 (04h)                          0 (00h)
JUNO Str 2              45 (2Ch)                        5 (05h)                          0 (00h)
OB Strings               45 (2Ch)                        6 (06h)                          0 (00h)

So, if you have a song setup with Midi PResets in Bandhelper, change the settings to 4,0,45 to select Juno Str 1.

IE MSB, LSB then PC

One issue though, is how your device is setup. For some reason, due to the early days, some devices were setup, wherby each number was setup under a different numerical system (IE 0-127, instead of 1-128), so each number is -1, but looking at the above from page 15, you should be okay. More info here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_MIDI

Admittedly I use Gig Performer for song/patch changes, as some of my sounds are 'soft sounds', but Bandhelper is the Master Controller, that controls the order of songs.
I use a Roland DS61 for most sounds. I had some fun with my DS61, finding the correct Patch list, that matched, and it took a few downloads to find one that matched. You are lucky, its in your manual. ;)

Just keep expereimenting, and download a midi monitor app for your device. This may help troubleshoot.

I'd look further at the VR09 for more info, then I'll want to buy one. LOL

martynw2000

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2023, 07:08:41 am »
Thanks for your help, it's really appreciated.

I guess the difference is, I'm trying to change the "registrations" I have programmed into the keyboard myself, not just change individual sound patches.

For example, on the registration I have saved in bank 1, program 1 is a Piano sound, with a small amount of reverb, a bit of delay, and layered with strings in the background at a certain volume level. I can bring that up using the registration buttons, but I can't use MIDI out of BandHelper to select that.

Another example is a registration where I have a split keyboard with piano on the left hand and brass on the right hand.

I don't think I can do that by calling individual tones - I need to be able to call registrations, and that's where my keyboard seems to be lacking that functionality.

I will keep experimenting though, and thanks again for the advice.

arlo

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2023, 09:28:56 am »
A "program" is a standard MIDI concept, but a "registration" is not. I still can't tell whether your keyboard uses "registration" as a synonym for "program" or whether a registration is a different thing. Your sources and your own messages mix up these terms in a confusing way. It seems clear from the manual that your keyboard can change programs in response to incoming program change messages. If you can establish that a registration is a different thing, then I'd suggest contacting the manufacturer to be sure there's no way to change registrations with incoming MIDI, and leave out any mention of programs to avoid confusion!

martynw2000

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2023, 10:30:16 am »
I'm talking about registrations. See attached. Used to save settings for a particular song.

yamahap200

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2023, 07:03:34 pm »
Hi I just came across your post.  I just ran into the 127 MIDI preset limatation.  Is there anyway around this to allow more presets to be created? Or am I just stuck?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 07:10:34 pm by yamahap200 »

arlo

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Re: MIDI help
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2023, 08:27:04 pm »
There is no limit to the number of MIDI presets you can create in BandHelper. Other devices should support multiple banks of 128 programs each. The MIDI spec allows for 16384 (128*128) banks.